Regarding the issue of talking to PEGIDA

During the last weeks, more people of various backgrounds voice and articulate their wish that PEGIDA and its followers should be talked to. We as a Allianz “Dresden Nazifrei” have also been asked what preconditions we would consider necessary to think about a dialogue with Pegida. We would like the opportunity to express a clear opinion on this matter. To do so, a few questions need to be answered and will eventually lead to our point of view.

1. Isn‘t being ready to talk generally part of a democratic society?

We have always that very clear: It is a necessity within a democratic process that all parties come to talk to each other despite of all contradictory opinions. It is this mindset that in the past we have always tried to get to talk to all players in the city, whose political aims where inconsistent with ours. There were always talks with the “AG 13. Februar” and a – to the date not accepted – invitation to talk to the mayor of Dresden. Being ready to talk is thus proven from our side. If a dialogue is about to take place, we would ask it to be amongst all players in the city who engage themselves in the fight against racism and violence originating from PEGIDA. The Mayor should invite to public talks including all people, especially the asylum seekers themselves, about how to improve the general spirit in the city towards a more welcoming one, and what can be done specifically for the refugees coming to Dresden and how to counter diffuse and arbitrary fears of the Dresden people more effectively.

2. Whom should we talk to?

Various players have now called for talks with the organisers and followers of the PEGIDA movement.

We are quite astonished about these pushes for talks, regardles from which part of politics or society they originate right now. Just a few weeks ago, the federal government itself descibed PEGIDA as “widerlich” (german for “disgusting” by Secretary of Justice – Heiko Maas, SPD) or “unverschämt” (german for “outrageous” by the Home Secretary - Thomas de Maiziere, CDU). The saxon Prime Minister Tillich (CDU) called for participation in the star walk of “Dresden für alle” (german for “Dresden for all”). And now, according to his own words, these people are supposed to be suitable partners for talks? Several public-owned broadcasters (MDR, ARD) have even gone as far as inviting leading figures of PEGIDA to public debates on television together with leading politicians.

Just to be clear here, PEGIDA summons the very same people who threw firecrackers and other pyrotechnical devices into a crowd of 11000 peaceful counter-protestors, who beat up members of the Dresden Rugby team (06/01/14) to a stage that they had to be admitted to hospital, who threatened Eric Hattke, the spokesman of the Dresden student council, to “hang him from his balls at a flag mast”, who publish wanted-posters on our spokesman Silvio Lang denouncing him as traitor, who want to shoot “Claudia Fatima Roth” (posted by Lutz Bachmann, head of PEGIDA) and who repeatedly express violence or threaten people with it in other respects. Sitting down Bachmann and his followers at the same table (or talk to him on a TV debate) means to legitimise this way of expressing political arguments. This cannot be done with the alliance “Dresden Nazifrei” and is totally contradictory to our goals.

A couple of the people now looking for dialogue, try to get away with saying that one should not talk to the head of PEGIDA, but rather with the so-called followers: NPD squads, hooligans, Nazis, “ordinary” right-wing filled up with hatred – are these the better people to talk to?

We are aware that PEGIDA is not homogeneous. We have also always emphasized that the term “Nazis” cannot be applied to all participants of the PEGIDA marches and rallies. We do differentiate between the head of PEGIDA, the actual Nazis, hooligans, right-wing rockers and the following “ordinary” right-wing people. For all but the last categories, the case is pretty clear from where we are standing: There is nothing to talk about, you are whole-hearted racists and proved that on various occasions. You deliberately tell lies to spread fear and hatred. You articulate yourself violently against each and everyone who does not fit your mindset. There is no dialogue with you, for you we can only offer resistance!

With regards to the so-called „concerned ordinary people“, which are mentioned repeatedly, a dialogue could be helpful. It would need to be focussed on setting relations straight, expose what is not truthful, diminish prejudices and it needs to take place in everyday life where it is exposed in bits and pieces – not on the big stage, but wherever we encounter them, at work, in a club, at school in the bakery or even in a park. It is important for the whole society to get into a dialogue when these topics and opinions are mentioned. However, this is not about making concessions towards racist propositions – who has to the day not realised which ideology is promoted by supporting PEGIDA cannot be spared from accusation of being racist. The aim has to be straighten things out. An alliance like ours is neither a feasible promotor or host for such a discussion. However, with organisations like the “Kulturbüro“ (cultural office), the NDC and „Bürger Courage“ such hosts do exist. But in the past years, their ideas programs and support has been a likely subject to financial cuts and budget constraints – PEGIDA is also result of this.

3. What could be a reason sit down and talk to PEGIDA?

Because their rallies allegedly attract such a large number of people? Let’s have a closer look at it. Dresden has 530000 inhabitants. Taking earlier numbers of PEGIDA participants where one can assume that they are all relatively local, some 10000 demonstrators would be about 1,9% of the local population. Berlin saw a march of 25000 on Mayday – where was the dialogue after that? On 11/02/2012 120000 people demonstrated against ACTA all over Germany. Again, no dialogue occurred. Even with the 50000 people demonstrating against the G8 summit at Heiligendamm and the 500000 people opposing the Iraq war in 2003, no goverment official wanted to sit down and talk afterwards. So why all the sudden with PEGIDA? The list above shows that the argument of mass is ludicrous! 10000 local PEGIDA followers are opposed by 44000 Dresden people with a migrant background, of which roughly 25000 are not german nationals (Figures from Dresden.de). These are the people on whos back PEGIDA spills hatred and tries to impose its demands. They are the ones who need to be talked to – not the racists!

We are aware that many organisations, including some who until now stood side-by-side with us in our campaign against PEGIDA or are even part of the alliance, now face the problem that some of their members are now marching with PEGIDA - May it be church communities, unions, parties or the big local football club. We under standstand that there is a strive to get these members “back on track” on a better path. However, from our point of view this phenomenon just shows what antifascist and antiracist campaigners repeatedly said in the past, but what nobody wanted to listen to. Racism is no side issue of our society, but right in between us! We know that one in five Germans agrees with racist propositions – all PEGIDA does is bringing that to the streets. The response cannot be to simply take this granted. In the contrary, the organisations in question have to make a clear statement: Either church, or PEGIDA, either union or PEGIDA, either political party or PEGIDA and so on – in brief: either part of an engaged democratic society or racist!

Moreover must one not legitimate PEGIDA and its viewpoints by sitting down and talking to them – especially should one not reward the organisers around Bachmann by doing so. Regardless of the numbers gathered by PEGIDA, they are and remain advocates of a racist ideology who would also enforce their goals violently. As long as that is the case, any dialogue is out of question for us and everyone who does so is losing all dignity and respect to be considered a valuable person for talks with our alliance.

4. What could be the goal of talks with PEGIDA?

Any dialogue knows three possible outcomes: 1) One realises that there is no agreement. In this case the issue with PEGIDA would remain as it is and talks would bring no benefit whatsoever. 2) One side can convince the other one completely – but we will definitely not agree with any of the racist viewpoints and PEGIDA has until now not made any suggestions that they would be ready to neglect at least some of their positions. 3) This leaves the third option of some sort of compromise. But how could this compromise with PEGIDA look like? You refrain from violence and we tolerate your racism? You dismay all Nazis in your demonstrations and we accept your devaluation of other people? All demands of PEGIDA are outrageous and absurd, because they are either already reality (and still criticised by us) – for example that the German asylum law doesn’t cover so-called “economic refugees” and that numerous politically persecuted people are also not granted asylum – or entirely pointless like the demand to protect the supposedly Christian-Jewish western culture.

Due to this we conclude that racism must not be given a stage. For these reasons, we cannot agree with the thought of having a dialogue with the organisers and followers of PEGIDA, also not with the far-right and hooligans who throw firecrackers on peaceful protestors and issue calls for murder online as well as rabble rousing propaganda. Hence, if people want to be engaged in serious talks about racism and its consequences, it must be outside of the PEGIDA movement, away from the big stage and focussed on the victims of racism.